1142
the Yamên's last answer, which he seemed to approve of. He said the inland provinces would certainly object to the commutation scheme, because they would not be content with the share of revenue that would be allotted to them in lieu of li-kin, but their objec- tions would be overruled by the Yamên; Tso Chung-tang thought of nothing but his two- provinces of Shênsi and Kansuh. I asked him whether he thought the li-kin free-area scheme, as arranged for in the Chefoo Couvention, was preferable. His answer was rather a curious one: he said that the li-kin free-area scheme was practically adopted, for at most ports now ti-kin was levied outside the foreign Settlements. It is evident, there- fore, that they expect to get a much larger revenue from the commutation rate.
I told him about M. von Brandt, and how negotiations had broken down on the question of manufactured native produce. He seemed annoyed, and said he hoped they were going to be resumed. I went into the point of the indivisibility of the opium and trade questions at some length, and I think the Chung-t'ang was convinced of the neces- sity of their being settled together. I told him I was going to Canton, Foochow, Nanking, &c., and asked him if he thought it well that I should speak to the Governors-General there about the opium and trade questions. He said, "Certainly." He was in communication with Chang Chih-t'ai* on the opium question, and I might talk freely with him about it.
It has occurred to me that by hurrying down to Canton I may catch Ma, who may be disposed to be communicative when he finds that I have been told by the Chung-t'ang of all his movements. If I could get some detailed information from him it might be of use. The "Taku" leaves this to-morrow, and, unless I go by her, I may have to wait four or five days for a steamer, which would delay my departure from Shanghae. I shall be in Shanghae long enough, I think, to receive any further instructions you may have for me.
I must apologize for the disjointed nature of this Roport, but with only a few hours at my disposal, I am obliged to write it rather rapidly. Warry has come to my assistance in the matter of copying, so I am able to keep a copy, which will serve as a basis for a more elaborate Report if you wish for something more formal.
The impression I carried away with me this morning was that the Chung-t'ang is strongly in favour of a monopoly based on Samuel's scheme, with certain modifications; that he wishes to dispense with Samuel's aid, but that he very much wishes for your co-operation; also, that he wishes to hold your proposal in reserve, 1 mean the 80 or 90-tael scheme; that he is quite averse to Tso Chung-tang's proposals, and especially ridicules that portion of the scheme relating to native opium.
I should earlier have men- tioned this. He said that Tso Chung-t'ang's Memorial was contradictory. He didn't Nothing short of want to legalize native opinion, but to prohibit it, and yet to tax it. legalization would allow it to be regularly taxed, and, in the face of the Decrees peremp torily forbidding the cultivation of the poppy, so many of which have appeared of late years, the Emperor could not turn round now and legalize it.
To return to my impressions. I think, from what the Chung-t'ang let fall, the Yamên, who are equally opposed to Tso Chung-t'ang's plan, have put all the respon- sibility of opposing him on the shoulders of Li Chung-tang, who is the most likely person to be able to settle the opium question; in fact, he said as much, and implied that his credit was at stake in the matter. That he is very anxious to settle it I think there can be no doubt, and his satisfaction when I told him of your intention to stay and see the matter through was undoubtedly genuine. He told me he should write you a formal note,† saying he had seen me, and had charged me to report to you all that had passed. His manner was particularly civil throughout, and his parting words to me were extremely
kind.
Yours, &c.
(Signed) WALTER C. HILLIER.
P.S.-I find I have omitted to tell you that I tried hard to find out whether Ma's mission was the idea of the Chung-t'ang. He declared positively that it was, but 1 fancy, from a rather frequent use of Detring's name in connection with his account of Samuel's visit, that Detring has been cousuited a good deal about Ma's movements.
The Chung- t'ang told me casually that Detring had informed him that there had been much dis- satisfaction amongst the Foreign Ministers at his having neglected to call on them when last in Peking. Had I heard anything about it? I told him, "No." He said that his mourning, and the nature of his errand, prevented him from paying visits of ceremony at
W. C. H.
that time.
* The Governor General at Canton, Chang Shu-sheng, a fellow-townsman and client of the Graud Secretary.
t He never did.--T, W.
(Confidential.)
My dear Sir Thomas,
143
Inclosure 4 in No. 75.
Mr. Hillier to Sir T. Wade, August 15, 1881.
[See p. 18.]
Inclosure 5 in No. 75.
Mr. Hillier to Sir T. Wade.
Canton, August 27, 1881. I PAID my visit to the Governor-General yesterday afternoon, and was agreeably surprised at the pleasant way in which it passed off.
I had not a inoment to wait at the big gates, which were opened in readiness, and the Governor-General received me in the courtyard directly to the right of the entrance ball, which you may remember.
After the usual greetings he took me to a large room where another official was waiting, whom I afterwards learned was an interpreter. I explained the primary object of my visit, which elicited a long story from the Governor-General as to the reasons which prompted him to suggest the appointment of the Grain Taotai.
any
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I told him that the principal objection of the Foreign Ministers to the arrangement was its similarity to the Trade Committee system at Foochow. He denied that there was semblance of a Committee about his arrangement, and said the expectant Tantais and Prefects whom it was proposed to associate with the Grain Taotai would be in the same relation to him as any subordinate to bis chief, and correspondence would be conducted with the Grain Taotai alone. He, the Governor-General, was not in any way attempting to shirk his work, and would always, as heretofore, be willing to see the Consuls and correspond with them on matters of importance; but with the increasing number of Consulates and the growth of foreign business, he thought it only fair that the conduct of ordinary business of a formal kind should be left to the Grain faotai, and the Governor- General, who had an immensity of business on his hands, should be spared the mere routine work. He said the whole of the correspondence with the Legations on this subject had been forwarded to him, and he asked whether instructions to abide by the new arrangement bad been sent to the Consulate. I told him no, but that I believed the matter was under the consideration of the Foreign Ministers, and that instructions would no doubt shortly be sent. He begged me to ask you to send these instructious soon, and to explain the nature of the change it was contemplated to make.
From intercourse we passed on to opium. I told him that Li Chung-tang had charged me to tell him what had passed at my visit, and in doing so I gave him a short history of the opium negotiations, with which he seemed fairly familiar. He told mc Ma had not been in Canton (which I ventured to doubt), and that he did not know where Ma had now gone. He had, however, seen Governor Hennessy, who had declared himself unable to do more than promise to do all he could to support any arrangement that might be made between the Indian Government and yourself. I then asked the Governor- General which, in his opinion, was the better of the two schemes-the monopoly scheme as proposed by Li Chung-t'ang, or the modification of the arrangement proposed in the Chefoo Agreement, viz., the substitution of one payment at the port of entry in lieu of all further dues and duties.
He answered my question by another, Were you in favour of the Hong Kong Monopoly scheme? I said I could not possibly tell him, because it had not been before you on my departure from Peking, and was even now in so immature a state that I imagined it would have to be more accurately formulated before anyone could express an opinion on its merits. I knew, however, that you would be ready to give your support to any reasonable arrangement that would secure their legitimate revenue to the Chinese Government, and it was for this reason that I had asked his opinion on the respective merits of the two schemes.
He then said that the chief object to be held in view was the prevention of smuggling, and he quoted figures to show what an enormous amount of opium was annually smuggled from Hong Kong. He thought the monopoly arrangement would satisfactorily secure this object, and he did not see how smuggling from Hong Kong could be prevented under the commutative rate system, for Hong Kong would still remain a depôt from which smuggling could be carried on as before. I told him that if a com- mutative rate were agreed upon, I had little doubt that arrangements could be made by In this case, he said, he was which smuggling from Hong Kong could be put a stop to.
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